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Would it include weighted probabilities? If so is that considered fair or even random at all?
tringlomaneThanks for this post from:
Well, RNG is used quite a lot in gaming and I am not talking just about casino games. Little caesar number. If you or your children have a favourite video game, chances are there is RNG going on there. For example, if you’re playing a shooter game, when you fire the in-game weapon, does the bullet hit the exact spot you’re trying to shoot at or does it go a. An example of this in video games would be the random card draws in Hearthstone: the game uses a Random Number Generator to dictate the next card you draw or outcome of a coin toss.this is why so many people are heard cursing about RNG on streams.It's like cursing a coin for coming up tails when you wanted heads. Separately from card games like Hearthstone there are things like dungeon crawlers.
Would it include weighted probabilities? If so is that considered fair or even random at all?
The RNG itself? No.
But the game elements will absolutely have weighted probabilities. Look at the Wheel of Fortune Bonus wheel for example. The lowest paying slice hits much more frequently than the top slice. A RNG still determines the result though. There is just many more RNG values mapped to the lower paying prizes.
Define Rng Gaming Mouse
It's definitely still random. And it's fair to me at least. If all symbols had to have the same probability of hitting, the game mechanics become repetitive and possibly boring.charliepatrickThanks for this post from:
It's difficult to prove a RNG has been correctly programmed, so the RNG itself needs to create provable random numbers (say 32-bit strings with equal probability etc.) If you want to give weighting then you might turn the random numbers into a range 1 to 512 and pick A=1-10, B-11-30, etc.
MichaelBluejayThanks for this post from:
IF YOU MADE AN RNG FOR A GAME..Would it include weighted probabilities? If so is that considered fair or even random at all?
trtinglomane nailed it: You're conflating two different things, the RNG, which produces results without bias (the very definition of 'random'), and the game, which can indeed include weighting.Programmers don't 'make' RNGs for games. They use one of about a dozen common algorithms that were coded long ago by other people.
One of my readers asked the age-old question, 'How can a slot be random if it's programmed to return, say, 95% to the player?' The thinking is that randomness and a 95% payback are mutually exclusive when it's the opposite: the randomness is what creates the 95% payback.
I use this example: Say you pay a dollar to play a game in which you pick a ball from a bag. There are 95 black balls and 5 white balls. If you pick a black ball, you win a dollar. This is a 95% game. There's a 'weighted probability' in that you're much more likely to get a black ball than a white ball, but that doesn't mean that the results aren't random.
https://easy.vegas/games/slots/random
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My general concern here and why i asked this is because of this..
So from what I thought I knew, which was wrong, and what I think a majority of the internet thinks is that a number is generated like so :
generate(min,max,seed){
return RAND(min,max,seed);
}
BUT what we are speaking about is something like this :
generate(min,max,seed){
x = RAND(min,max,seed); // usually this probably wouldnt be 'min' or 'max' but would generate a number between 0 and 1
if(x<=95){
win
}
if(x<=5){
lose
}
}
Now my concern, if you didnt see this coming is that the second algorithm, is what you are claiming is fair contains a secondary decision making process to ensure probabilities. The first RAND function call is independent. And therefore fair.. But whats to stop the algorithm from going a bit further such as this
generate(min,max,seed){
x = RAND(min,max,seed);
if (playerdealer){
if(x=95){
do something else
}
}
}
the third algorithm is still random and fair because it is making the random decision first without the choice of whether or not a specific player is getting the 'random' number but after that its game on..?
MichaelBluejaySo from what I thought I knew, which was wrong, and what I think a majority of the internet thinks is that a number is generated like so :
generate(min,max,seed){
return RAND(min,max,seed);
}
BUT what we are speaking about is something like this :
generate(min,max,seed){
x = RAND(min,max,seed); // usually this probably wouldnt be 'min' or 'max' but would generate a number between 0 and 1
if(x<=95){
win
}
if(x<=5){
lose
}
}
Now my concern, if you didnt see this coming is that the second algorithm, is what you are claiming is fair contains a secondary decision making process to ensure probabilities. The first RAND function call is independent. And therefore fair.. But whats to stop the algorithm from going a bit further such as this
generate(min,max,seed){
x = RAND(min,max,seed);
if (playerdealer){
if(x=95){
do something else
}
}
}
the third algorithm is still random and fair because it is making the random decision first without the choice of whether or not a specific player is getting the 'random' number but after that its game on..?
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Roadhouse reels bonus codes. Now my concern, if you didnt see this coming is that the second algorithm, is what you are claiming is fair contains a secondary decision making process to ensure probabilities. The first RAND function call is independent. Casinos in louisiana near me. And therefore fair.. But whats to stop the algorithm from going a bit further such as this
generate(min,max,seed){
x = RAND(min,max,seed);
if (playerdealer){
if(x=95){
do something else
}
}
}
the third algorithm is still random and fair because it is making the random decision first without the choice of whether or not a specific player is getting the 'random' number but after that its game on..?
I'm not following you, at all.generate(min,max,seed){
x = RAND(min,max,seed);
if (playerdealer){
if(x=95){
do something else
}
}
}
the third algorithm is still random and fair because it is making the random decision first without the choice of whether or not a specific player is getting the 'random' number but after that its game on..?
Are you asking if it's possible that the game code, separate from the RNG, isn't fair? Sure. A number of cases have been found with online casinos over the years. The last case I heard with a physical machine was decides ago, but there might be cases I don't know about or my memory could be faulty. The Nevada Gaming Commission has its own lab and examines the source code of the games. I don't know if they look at every single game before it's approved, and it's possible they could miss something.
To have a cheating game with a proper RNG the code could do something like this:
With that pseudocode, when the player has been getting a return greater than 90%, the program keeps picking truly random numbers until a losing number is drawn.
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YES. THANK YOU SO MUCH. Everyone, I'll shut up for a very long time, and I apologize it took me so long to fully understand this and ill shut up.
I know they look at source code in theory, but from the standards that I am reading the gaming commission for any jurisdiction can decide whether or not to implement such regulations that ban that sort of thing. From what I understand, the secondary decision making process (the discarding of results) is mostly dealing with the scaling process of the RNG. But thats as far as I will go because I have no clue about that process or how it is implemented in any way.
I know they look at source code in theory, but from the standards that I am reading the gaming commission for any jurisdiction can decide whether or not to implement such regulations that ban that sort of thing. From what I understand, the secondary decision making process (the discarding of results) is mostly dealing with the scaling process of the RNG. But thats as far as I will go because I have no clue about that process or how it is implemented in any way.
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If you are wondering why I asked this question i was reading this standard from BMM
'Internet Random Number Generator Requirements'
https://web.archive.org/web/20070127052716/http://www.bmm.com:80/assets/industry_standards/pdf/I0101.PDF
Dobrij'Internet Random Number Generator Requirements'
https://web.archive.org/web/20070127052716/http://www.bmm.com:80/assets/industry_standards/pdf/I0101.PDF
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Rng Gaming Org
In fact, most games do not use RNG, but use PRNG (pseudorandom number generator). To create a PRNG we need an algorithm that will generate some sequence based on a certain formula. But such a sequence can be predicted.
And what is the question, do we need to create or hack a generator?
And what is the question, do we need to create or hack a generator?
charliepatrick
Define Rng In Gaming
(i) I think some fruit machines have to continually ask for a random number until the next spin (or whatever) is pressed. Thus the RNG itself doesn't have to be that rigorous (but might as well be something like Mersenne as it's easy to code/copy these days).
(ii) There ARE compensated fruit machines in the UK. These tend to give fewer prizes when the machine has been paying out and more prizes when it hasn't. Typically these machines are in pubs for lower prizes (e.g. max £100). The ones in casinos, I think, have to be totally random. This topic was covered in the slot machines part of https://wizardofodds.com/blog/gambling-united-kingdom/ .
(ii) There ARE compensated fruit machines in the UK. These tend to give fewer prizes when the machine has been paying out and more prizes when it hasn't. Typically these machines are in pubs for lower prizes (e.g. max £100). The ones in casinos, I think, have to be totally random. This topic was covered in the slot machines part of https://wizardofodds.com/blog/gambling-united-kingdom/ .